Power Kite Forum

bar help needed

nomad - 25-2-2011 at 01:51 PM

Hello and here we go. been flying me f/b kites but have come across a problem (many moons ago had bike smash, plates in wrist and knackard tenderns in thumb on right hand) noticed whilst flying having big problems breaking to tight turn and breaking in general plus fine control and it keeps running whilst im trying to break as im overcompensating, wrist dont want to work that way (ie thumbs up position).....(buts they are ok to use like in a handel bar position)
NOW questions ....would it be as easy to control and as controlablea f/b kite with a bar?, can bars be used on all f/b kites ?, is there any special bars to look out for ( i dont mean lablels ozone,ect ect) but type ?, how do the brakes work on a bar? i know its alot but i want to carry on but this is becoming a brick wall problem

macboy - 25-2-2011 at 02:01 PM

No and yes. I know if you do a quick search here you'll find info on a crossover bar setup somewhere on here. To my knowledge that's gonna be the best turning speed if I'm not mistaken. A standard fixed bridle bar will generally only turn the kite by the front lines for the most part. It's the brake input that really gets things turning on FBs.

John Holgate - 25-2-2011 at 02:13 PM

I use an Ozone Turbo bar 99% of the time when I'm not flying depowers. Turbo Bar turns with about 70% brake input and you need to make sure the kite you're flying likes to be turned like that. My Flow/Imps/Beamer/Methods fly very well on the bar. I've also flown a 4m Blade V on the bar and it flew and turned very well. There's also some video of a crossfire II 5m being flown on the bar. I've tried my Century II 2.8 and it was a disaster - as soon as I went to turn the kite there was too much brake input, squeezed the air out of one side of the kite with the resulting stall & spin. Reactor II 4m was similar. Hornets fly ok, but you can feel them lose a little pressure in the turn.

Pulling on a bit of brake is a one handed operation - very handy while filming in the bug. The bar took me a little while to get used to because when you're static flying and pull too much brake, the kite stalls. At speed in the buggy, the same amount of brake now holds the kite back in the window and provides a bit more power - not dis similar to a depower kite, except your only controlling brakes, not depowering the kite. Ozone advertise the turbo bar as having 'depower through the brakes'. I do not agree with this - adding brakes simply gives the wing a bit more lift (like flaps on a wing) up until the drag beats the lift and the kite stalls - not what I call depower.

Kite turns easier on the bar because of leverage and mechanical advantage of the pulleys on the bar. Although you don't have as much control as you can do with handles - I've never needed to do something with the kite that I couldn't do with the bar.

There's some close up footage of the Method on the bar in the reviews section (Method 6.5). There's also some close up footage of the bar here too: depower bar shootout

acampbell - 25-2-2011 at 04:15 PM

Among fixed bridle kites, there are 2-line biased kites and 4-line biased. The former will fly fine w/out much brake input and the latter will want brake input to turn well or sometimes even behave at all.

A standard 4-line control bar (not a de-power bar), will provide some brake input automatically to help in turns but usually not enough for 4-line biased kites. It works like this: On a 4 line control bar, the brakes usually go to a pulley on a leader at the center of the bar. On each side of the bar, the main line, the brake line and the bar itself form a right triangle (roughly) with the brake line as the hypotenuse. When you move the bar to turn, you change the geometry of the triangles such that as the brake leader flows through the pulley in response to the forces applied, one brake line effectively gets shorter and the other longer, and brake is therefore applied in the direction of the turn.

On a crossover bar, pulleys are used to amplify these brake inputs through mechanical advantage/ purchase. Hard to explain without a diagram, which I do not have at the moment. But some 4-line biased kites will fly on them.

Ozone turbo bar answers the question of what would happen if you put a FB kite on a de-power bar, as it uses a harness to hold the front lines and the bar moves in and out to control brake tension. A cross-over kind of rig is thrown in to the mix to really mix things up, but with tinkering, a lot of kites will fly on it that otherwise would not fly on a bar at all.

Bladerunner - 25-2-2011 at 05:15 PM

Is there a reason you want to stick with fixed bridle other than that is what you own ?

It sounds to me as though you could go depower ?

labrat - 25-2-2011 at 08:01 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by acampbell
there are 2-line biased kites and 4-line biased.


How would one go about telling the difference? Defined/measurable criteria or hands on experience?

nomad - 27-2-2011 at 09:47 AM

thanks for the advice all finaly ordered a peter lynn back brace that should help take some of the pressure off me wrist so i can control better

Taper123 - 27-2-2011 at 01:59 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by acampbell
On a crossover bar, pulleys are used to amplify these brake inputs through mechanical advantage/ purchase. Hard to explain without a diagram, which I do not have at the moment. But some 4-line biased kites will fly on them.



This works really well on larger kites. I have a home-rigged crossover bar I fly my larger fixed bridles on. It makes them turn faster and gives good control...

Taper123 - 27-2-2011 at 02:02 PM

One question... are you flying with a harness and using a strop between the two handles to take off the pressure on your wrists or purely flying with the handles?

Bladerunner - 27-2-2011 at 02:41 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by nomad
thanks for the advice all finaly ordered a peter lynn back brace that should help take some of the pressure off me wrist so i can control better


Looks like he opted for a back strap.
Old school !

I found even within a brand my 4.5m Bullet was the worst kite I tried on a X over bar yet my 7m Bullet was one of the best on the bar ?

nomad - 27-2-2011 at 03:52 PM

no harness just the handles but was having dificulty with the right wrist strenth flying and dipping the breaks as well on the right so hopefully the simple back strap will just take off a little pull on the wrist so i can dip the handles better :yes:

Taper123 - 27-2-2011 at 06:06 PM

Guess it's alla matter of what you are doing with your kites.. A harness transfers teh energy to your body for stability... It is less wrist pressure but you are "hooked" into the kite. Most depowers that fly on bars have a built in safety you can activate if things get out of hand. i prefer to fly depowerables on bars... but that is just my choice. if you master the handles/strop combination... then you can harness the true power of fixed bridal foils. It's all good when powered by a kite.

nomad - 28-2-2011 at 10:54 AM

its not a true harness, but just a back strap it goes around your back just below the sholders and is connected to the top of the handles you still wear kite killers if it all goes tits up you just let go as normal and bend foward at the hip put your arms out straight above your head and in theary it will come off over your head like a.... comming off thing!!! well in theory!!!!!!!!!!!! sand munching time.....:P

Bladerunner - 28-2-2011 at 05:58 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by nomad
!!! well in theory!!!!!!!!!!!! :P


I'm not knocking the back strap. Haven't tried it but I have seen them used.

I see a real issue with one catching my helmet as it flies off my back? :roll:

How do you avoid having it catch your helmet ?

Kamikuza - 28-2-2011 at 06:58 PM

Don't think it would matter if it did, BR ...

nomad - 2-3-2011 at 03:55 PM

yep could be a problem i sapose, but not as bad as beeing totaly attached by the middle to a run away 4.7 on full "I kill you!!!" mode! :tumble:

Bladerunner - 2-3-2011 at 05:52 PM

Actually I would rather be tossed by the middle than having the strap hook up on my helmet as the kite is flying powered off of my back.

There's risks with every safety . I'm not saying that back straps are wrong or that a harness is right, just that I'm not so sure I want to try one. Not with a helmet on.

It seems to me with your condition you really want a depower kite. My Pulse has almost zero bar pressure and yet is a joy to fly !

heliboy50 - 2-3-2011 at 11:26 PM

Sweep across the bottoms of both handles with an open hand, grab both break leaders and pull for all you are worth- works like killers. I have done this in the bug for panic stops, especially since getting unhooked, trying to deploy a quick release, or dealing with the kk tangle is more trouble then help, IMHO. Never tried a turbo bar, many swear by them. Or as BR said, give depower a try.

nomad - 3-3-2011 at 02:02 PM

only just started learning realy, so will get down the beach when it gets lighter in the evenings and the weather improves at the weekend and see if i can beg a go on a depower to see what you mean, im not one to knock it untill ive tried it! i must admit i was tossing the thought about in my head about the helmet issue aswell, i will just have to give it a go. You know what thay say.... "If it were that simple it would'ent be that much fun" :lol:

John Holgate - 3-3-2011 at 10:57 PM

Depending on the depower, you might find it a little slow and cumbersome to fly compared to the smaller fixed bridles - but the depower starts to come into it's own when you get in motion and you can move the bar in and out to compensate for gusts or pull the bar in to brake the back end of the buggy out or for a bit of a launch....

nomad - 4-3-2011 at 02:48 PM

Thay say depower are not at there best static and really come into there own when on the move, I will give me Pansh Flux some more stick and get to grips with the whole wind window 'static flying' for a while, and see, excuse the pun "where the wind takes me" :wink2: I'm still not sure what direction to go in buggy or board, doubt will be going with kite surf though, realistically cant afford that option......

John Holgate - 4-3-2011 at 03:36 PM

Board is way more portable/lighter/easier to transport. Buggy is relatively heavy and awkward to get in and out of cars. But I spend all day on my feet so I want a hobby than I can sit down in!!! If freestyling is your aim, I think you would be better off on a board - at least you have a couple of big shock absorbers under your bum. Regular freestyling with the buggy seems to have a very high injury rate - all the buggy jumpers I know have had major injuries and they are all very skilled and careful riders. But if you like speed - go for the buggy.

Definitely go for a helmet. And don't forget that with a decent crossover/turbo bar - you have a big red safety thingo that you can pull to kill the power. If you can't get the backstrap off, then you're going along for the ride.....

Depowers don't really show their stuff when static flying but I still have a lot of fun on the beach static flying them. The smaller Access XT's turn pretty quick and are quite ok to static fly - there's a vid of the 4m xt in the kite review section where I'm just flying it static on top of the neighbor's hill.

nomad - 4-3-2011 at 03:56 PM

belive it or not i watched that video yesterday night and i must say lovley flying and what a scorcher of a venue did like the way the kite was very stable and almost looked lazy but at the same time quick direction changes and with a nice turn of speed across the window nice mmmmm :bigok:

Bladerunner - 4-3-2011 at 05:20 PM

I know that a depower comes into it's own in motion but I still enjoy static flying with one as much as with handles.
For my style static / pendulem jumping with a depower is more fun and safe than handles.

Just keep enjoying and learning with what you have. Save some cash and watch the for sale section. If you are set to buy fast some pretty amazing deals come up on here.

I DO suggest that if you are still bothered after a while that you sell your FB stuff to fund a depower rather than give up.

Note : Not all depower kites have light bar pressure.

nomad - 5-3-2011 at 02:48 AM

Ho no I wont give up, but as you sugest just rethink and change direction its always good to keep an open mind and not get stuck in a one style mind set

nomad - 19-3-2011 at 12:40 PM

yea update did manage to get a good sesh today only 20 mins with me Pansh Flux 4.7 and me wrists were shagged. Got me Peter Lymm back strap hooked up and then did 1 1/4 hrs more of practice flying, I cant say enough for this small piece of kit absa-bloody-lootly-fantastic :spin: has changed my flying, love it also i dont or cant fling me arms around as much and that has also improved me technique. I have just purchased a land board won't be using me back strap with that though me thinks it would be a bit suicidal whilst learning :thumbdown: