Power Kite Forum

Line Extension Ideas

PistolPete - 24-1-2011 at 08:15 PM

Hi - I would welcome any advice or comments on making a set of flying line extensions. My motive is to gain hands on experience tuning kite lines to flying conditions (wind speeds, controllability, etc…) The kite I am planning to test is a 4-Line 3m HQ Beamer IV. This fixed line kite gives immediate feedback and it has excellent stock handling characteristics to evaluate if line length changes provide any improvements. The stock lines are 20m (66’) long with strength ratings of 485# (front/power) and 220# (rear/break).

My proposed plan is to make 3 different sets of lines: 15m(50’), 10m(33’), and 5m(17’). By using these lines or adding lines together I would have a large range to play with:
> 5m (17’)
> 10m (33’)
> 15m (50’)
> 20m (66’) Stock
> 25m (82’) = 20m(66’) + 5m(17’)
> 30m (99’) = 20m(66’) + 10m(33’)
> 35m (116’) = 20m(66’) + 15m(50’)
> 40m (132’) = 20m(66’) + 15m(50’) + 5m(17’)
> 45m (149’) = 20m(66’) + 15m(50’) + 10m(33’)
> 50m (166’) = 20m(66’) + 15m(50’) + 10m (33) + 5m(17’)
I assume the tolerances would stack up on the longer lengths, with multiple lines, and may require a bit of trimming. Please let me know what you think? :puzzled:

Looking forward to your ideas! -Pete

ripsessionkites - 24-1-2011 at 08:22 PM

just curious why you would want to add extension to 20m lines, for a 3m foil?

PistolPete - 24-1-2011 at 08:36 PM

I'm curious to learn the differences. Would a larger kite provide a better test bed?

http://kitesurfingschool.org/tuning.htm

Quote:

You can use longer or shorter line length. Use the following general guidelines to select the right line length:

Short (15m - 20m) If the wind is strong or if you kitesurf in wave
Medium (20m - 25m) For most condition
Long (30m - 40m) If the wind is light

Using different line length increases the wind range of your kite. The standard line length is 20m - 25m as such line length is best for all-around kitesurfing (going upwind, jumping, moving the kite to generate more power, etc.). By using 15m lines, you can add another 10 - 20% to the upper wind range of the kite and by using 40m lines, you can add another 10 - 20% to the lower wind range of the kite. So be adventurous and use different line length with your kites.

PistolPete - 24-1-2011 at 08:59 PM

zero gee - 24-1-2011 at 09:03 PM

IMHO, tinkering with line extensions to that degree is an outdated concept. Line extensions can also be a pain in the a$$ to setup, change lengths, untangle, etc. It only gets worse with the more extensions used. Instead of giving you more flying time that you expect, they can reduce it and hinder your progress.

With todays depower kites you can comfortably cover a 30 knot wind range with just 2 kites, 1 bar, with 1 set of lines of stock length. Been riding like this since 2001. I hate to tinker. More riding... and less tinkering for me. :tumble:

BeamerBob - 24-1-2011 at 09:38 PM

Its funny, when you said that about wind range with 2 kites, I thought "hey, I could do that with my 10 and 15m synergies". And then I looked at your quiver. More flying, less tinkering. Tinker when the wind isn't blowing. Fly when it is.

Kamikuza - 24-1-2011 at 10:20 PM

What 0-G said ... although I do believe there are sweet spots re line length for each kite ...

Oh and ... the way it plays out at kiteforum.com, it all smacks to me of a pissing contest - "I ride the smallest kite with the shortest lines and the shorest strapless board in the lowest winds - I'm the biggest man on the beach!"

macboy - 24-1-2011 at 11:26 PM

hehehehe....Kami - earlier today I was thinking about the core differences of PKF versus other forums like Foilzone, kiteforum, chickenloop etc and I think (though the others are great, don't get hatin' on me) I think that PKF is the most peace, love and happiness kinda place around. You musta been reading my mind. Or vice versa.

PPete - I say go ahead and play. My first kite had lines so long you could still grab them from the ground 1/2 way down the lines with the kite at Zenith (long droopy lines). Then there was the infamous "trying to fly my Rev on 15m lines" lesson. Who knew its be so much easier with longer lines. I'm a bit of a gadget guy, that's my "tinkering". I'm quick to put a stop to it if I feel like I'm tinkering too much and not flying enough.

Kamikuza - 24-1-2011 at 11:48 PM

Yeah man this place is :cool2: it's like the local pub that the spanners from town simply don't know about.
And I think it's that we all have a broad interest in Kites ...

krumly - 25-1-2011 at 09:16 AM

Pete -

Experimenting is cool. And you'll be bored long before you run through the permutations, and decide to pick up more kites instead ;)

Check out Hang 'em High for Spectra line as well. By the foot or spool:
http://ecom.citystar.com/hang-em-high/ushop/index.cgi?ID=VQT...

I've started using hollow core, single braid spectra fishing line for bridles and lines in my experiments 'cuz it's quite a bit cheaper. Most brands are quite thin and slick. You'll need a good piano wire fid to splice it. Check out:
http://www.mahitackle.com/jb500.html

Go to this thread on splicing an get down to the posts on brummel splicing by Kami. There is also a pic of the fids I've made - work great and cheap.

http://www.powerkiteforum.com/viewthread.php?tid=16175&p...

krumly

snowspider - 25-1-2011 at 09:18 AM

I had thought about shortening the lines on my high wind kites to reduce the size of the "power zone" - "danger zone" . From every thing I've read this is about the only posative change that can be gained by altering your line lenghts.

PHREERIDER - 25-1-2011 at 09:55 AM

Line ext . is a fun novelty. dated for sure .

the airush/access guy portrays it as NEW, but for only for , "new gear buyers" without the knowledge to DIY . which is good knowledge for better piloting.

tinker less fly more! thats what it comes to after some basic skill development. nice one ZG

on water or land it can produce some really funky kite loop riding with crazy kite action which BTW is NOT for the beginner and requires fast kite handling skills.

a good analogy is flying an airplane, more height is SAFER more time to react and recover, short lines takes all that away and you slam your gear more frequently. crashing less is GOOD for both scenarios!

the video makes a GREAT point "brings the pilot closer to the kite" as a metaphor it is dead on!

indigo_wolf - 25-1-2011 at 01:09 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kamikuza
Oh and ... the way it plays out at kiteforum.com, it all smacks to me of a pissing contest - "I ride the smallest kite with the shortest lines and the shorest strapless board in the lowest winds - I'm the biggest man on the beach!"


See.... you kind of lost me at "strapless". I was no longer thinking of kites or boards or... oh never mind.

This is a sure sign of looking forward to warmer weather.... sigh.

Ahh the fine tradition of outdoor nighttime venues when a warm breeze is stirring the trees and drifting music to and fro....

ATB,
Sam

BeamerBob - 25-1-2011 at 01:26 PM

Most subsequent thoughts are certainly deemed inappropriate. Where is the warm weather?!

indigo_wolf - 25-1-2011 at 03:45 PM

Months away, but there is a small niche in the #@%$#!les of my heart.

ATB,
Sam

Houston AirHead - 25-1-2011 at 03:47 PM

ive flown my sprint 5 and pansh legend 3 meter on 2 - 25 meter line sets(50m total). Super fun

when there is no wind out, there is always wind at high altitude. really cool stuff:thumbup:

snowspider - 25-1-2011 at 08:05 PM

Forgot to mention P P , Man On Wire , got to be one of the best stories ever told.

PistolPete - 25-1-2011 at 09:15 PM

Wow thanks for all the great info and opinions.

PistolPete - 28-1-2011 at 08:34 PM

Great movie:

PistolPete - 3-5-2013 at 06:33 PM

So fast-forward a few years, and many kites later… I must agree much more can be done with different kites rather than different lines! That said, now that I am semi-proficient at kiteboarding and so I made up some 40m QPower Lines and flew my 15m LEI Bow Kite in light winds this week. I noticed the (onshore) wind felt stronger with the kite almost twice as high, but it took forever to initiate a turn and once in a turn I had to pull the other steering line with my hand to get the kite to turn back. The center lines were tight but the steering lines had so much drag from the wind they were not of much use. QPower lines are a little larger and heavier than the typical braded spectra/dyneema lines (but they claim that because the shape is round they have less drag?). I did not want to spend my time trying to tune this setup so I used my other bar with my original 22m lines before going out on the water.

So here is my next question on this topic to the PKF Brain Trust: If I put lighter lines on the bar end steering lines to reduce the wind drag, do you think for light wind kiting I could make a 40m lineset on a 15m LEI Bow Kite useable (for jumping it would be awesome)?

I am skeptical, and again this may not be worth the effort, but I am curious and, always learn something when I play around changing things (usually that the trade-offs are the reasons why the designer choose the design parameters they do…and supply 22m linesets).

With the FB kites the brake lines are rated about half of what the power lines are (around 250#/500#). The kiteboard linesets lines are all the same type/rating (maybe to save costs and/or keep commonality/interchangeability or, to minimize breakage liability). The center lines seem to take most of the load and the bar end lines seem to only really be loaded up with the pressure you apply to turn (plus a little more force balanced on the two ends from the kite/bridal, you can feel when sheeting in/out). I may be wrong here, and again, I want to learn the easy way from our Brain Trust instead of the hard way (thus avoiding the next kitemare posting of a kook powered-up with a 15m kite, 40m up in the air; and then the steering line breaks,…fill in the carnage here). In short, what rated lines do you think are really need for the steering lines and why?

:eureka:

greasehopper - 3-5-2013 at 08:23 PM

I've been playing with this even since I got stuck on the south end of Ivanpah during an Out-n-Back Challenge run were there was wind 150 feet off the desk but the afternoon heat saturation on the desert floor made it nearly impossible to do anything with 30m lines. I was almost to the point of adding the 20m set I had as back up to the mix when I realized I didn't have enough handle length to control the kite effectively.

At some point this turns into a catanary function. Sure, you can minimize line drag to help that but real problem is available length of throw. A longer bar or longer handles are what's required here and that factor increases exponentially with increased speed because it's a parabolic function to begin with.

As to line weights, I couldn't begin to speak to de-power but I can tell you there is virtually no way to fully load a rear line on FB unless it's flying well beyond the designed wind range or grounded and dallied off in the bush... either way, that's when things get really exciting. I used to fly a 10m Crossfire in 15 to 18mph base winds, even rode out a few 25mph gusts. My good GAWD that's a scary sound when something like that powers up and the lines start singin'... Occasionally, I had to choke up on the handles and hang on the rear lines to keep it throttled back and still never broke one. Of course, I replaced them religiously too...

The only good reason I can see for such high load rated rear lines, which they all are in essence, is to handle shock loading. Because the front and rear lines of a de-power are loaded equally through a sheeting system, the rear lines necessarily carry the same rating as the fronts.

markite - 3-5-2013 at 09:06 PM

out of curiosity did you use regular 600lb Q Power or Q Power Pro? The 600lb Pro is almost the same dia as the reg 300lb. I do find the 600lb reg is thick so if I use the 600lb test I go with Pro line. I have also used 300lb test since light wind and extensions isn't huge power kiting it's more about keeping the kite up and moving. I haven't had issues with rear line drag using long extensions on my 16 or 17.5 but the kite is slower to react. I can still loop it and don't need to do anything outside regular control other than needing a little more room but I still loop the kite no problem with long extensions.

When we get spring doming it kills wind anywhere near a beach but sometimes it's at higher elevation and we have had days when the kites are parked straight up and juiced but bring them down more than a couple of wingspans and they fall out of the sky below the wind line. Parked up high you get crazy long jumps, not high because you don't get the kite movement but long and floaty.

PistolPete - 3-5-2013 at 09:12 PM

Thanks Greasehopper - You have an excellent point, real problem being length of throw. I know pulley bars can be used to increase the throw (at a cost of kite feel and added bar pressure):
http://www.kiteboardingevolution.com/kite-bar.html


In fact the 2008 Cabrinha Convert I was flying uses a pulley bar already but from my observation even 2x more throw than I had would not have been enough to turn the kite correctly (and it had no feel).

Hi Markite - I was not using the pro version, just standard/thick QPower 600lb. I did fly a FB 5m Beamer on 40m lines and it was controllable (with 200# brake lines) and had a very long power stroke. But with handles you can wave your hands a lot more than you can wave the stick at a DP. Slow to steer and a distant feel but, still I would call the FB kite experiment a success. I found 30m lines to be the sweet spot for the Beamer.

Maybe time to cut my lines/losses and the kooky :crazy: questions before somebody gets hurt?