Power Kite Forum - perception of foil kites

perception of foil kites

markite - 25-11-2010 at 03:28 PM

before sheetable kites were developed we all used FB foils to buggy and winter kite. Once surfing took off, the understanding of a foil seems to have been relegated to being described as a trainer and often a toy - not a real kite.

I get tired of constantly trying to educate people about different styles of kites and the pros and cons. Seems like a lot of experts out there that have been kiting now for a good 2-3 years! It's also reflected in the huge decrease in foil kites being sold around here - just no demand.

Even I haven't used my FB foils nearly as much either but there are days and certain times when I do. More often then not I'm using twinskins in winter and for buggying. Much more versatility for our winds.

Just curious if others hear this sort of thing in their areas?
Here is a sample of a typical post on the Ontario kiting forum as we approach the winter season - a guy was saying he had a small trainer but was wondering if he should get a larger one for winter:

"I went out snow kiting once and forgot my pump so I cracked out the trainer. Wind was crankin and it wasn't much fun. It was a lot harder to balance, and because the trainers can't be sheeted, it was pretty tough on the arms. They are bad for unhooked riding."

"If you buy a 3.5m trainer...it's kinda useless since it won't have enough power to pull you on snow or water...I would get a 9m proper kite."

"I have one of the 3m HQ hydra trainers which is purely for fun at the beach or out with a tobboggan. No way you are going to last for a good snow session with something like that, too hard on the arms in conditions that might get you going on the snow.
They are fun toys, but not much more than that. Easy to lug around, my kids have fun with it."

Bladerunner - 25-11-2010 at 05:01 PM

We get no respect at all from the kitesurf crowd here in Vancouver.
They are nothing short of rude to us on their local forum. Even the fellow who runs the kitesurf shop is less than on our side.
I don't see that attitude changing until we catch up with Proper lessons, locations and governing bodies.

I fell in love with kites and the wind for my own reasons and enjoy it for my own reasons and it has made all the difference. My calling wasn't for the water or for board sports. I am just THRILLED that I found all the other ways to kite. I was failing miserably on water and ready to give up on kiting. Then one day the water froze and I found my calling ! :wee:

kteguru - 25-11-2010 at 05:14 PM

Know what you mean Markite. Personally I prefer flying more efficient maneuverable kites which currently means FB. But huge leaps in performance and safety have been made over the years with depower making them pretty appealing so I can see why so many have flocked to them. I recall 5 or 6 years ago handing my 4.9 blade over to a "pro" kitesurfer who wanted to have a go on it and he was dumbfounded at this strange contraption and was baffled at the control devices :crazy:

. It was even more of a laugh watching the expression on his face as he wasn't expecting any power from this toy since he just came in off his 12m tube.

You never know though,,,,,,,maybe in the future we'll all be flying the same kites. FB kites will depower and depower kites will be responsive.:dunno::wee:

Quote:

Seems like a lot of experts out there that have been kiting now for a good 2-3 years!

Hey, after 10 years your crusty and old and don't know anything.....just get out of their way so they can show you how its done :lol:

AD72 - 25-11-2010 at 08:50 PM

I am called "foil guy" at the local kitesurfing spot. I have heard "going oldschool?", "look, German engineering", "how you like the flying air matress?", and "are you from Europe cause nobody flys those here." Not in a confrontational way - just joking. I don't perceive disrespect and could really give a crap if there is.
The foils are just foreign to the LEI crowd since most of them have never done kite sports on land. Most are surfers or windsurfers first, kiters second. In the end, the kite is just a tool to get moving or airborne or a bit of both. To each his own.
It is funny though when I get asked if I need an assist launch. I say no. And then get nervous looks as the kite inflates and pops into shape in flight. I actually get props for water relaunching a foil.

Kamikuza - 25-11-2010 at 11:11 PM

I got "Sell your foils and get a real kite" from a local shop guy who then got all sulky when I bought the LEI's off the internet and not him :lol:

From the locals, I get nothing but admiration - I AM the first one out and the last one in and they're amazed. I get asked questions like "Does it float?" or "Aren't the tangles terrible?" or "Isn't it impossible to launch if you drop it?" but they just ignorant :lol:

... I gave my Cult 3.5 to Mr Miyachi the local instructor dude and once I gave him a basic over-view of how the handles worked, he picked up on it pretty quick. But was terrified by the power :lol:

ripsessionkites - 26-11-2010 at 01:10 AM

dunno this sounds more like Trainer vs FB / LEI / Depower / TS more than anything.

i think if the guy would have had a 9m anything even a FB, he would be thinking twice about the "foil" design.

you should ask him since he forgot his pump, why didn't just use his mouth, and all his hot air. A 9m LEI doesnt take that long to inflate, you might be out a breath for a bit though.

in vancouver, is more like Kitesurfer vs Land Traction.

shortage of foil kites (fb, depower), totally not the case here in Canada. Ontario / QC crew will see a few of my custom Vapors in your neck of the wood, and a lot more Vapors too. in vancouver FS is going to be the next big thing, as many are going that route for the light wind conditions.

foils are NOT dead!!! most are just followers. kitesurfing has more LEI, landboarding 60 / 40, snowkiting 50 / 50, kitebuggying 90 / 10
all those pioneer kitesurfers were on "foils" at the beginning, if they were still on them now, everyone would be on foils depower or fixed.

for the record, i have Rabbits, but its only because Im not a fair weather flier so I needed something for Snow and Rain. until the PL LEI comes, ill be on those. Nothing beats a Vapor on handles in a buggy.

powerzone - 26-11-2010 at 09:14 AM

AIR MATRESS FLIERS UNITE !

this is classic kite-society-bias..... poop on what you dont understand, or just because its different from the norm.

we get this everywhere we go..... it used to bug me... but now i find it hilarious. just roll with it guys, it won't go away....

'from the overflow of the heart, the mouth speaks' ..... explains how people's true colors have a way of showing themselves.

don't be offended by these comments.... take them as a compliment that you are a true foil kiter doing something which they perhaps will never comprehend..... but you do. You know why you fly what you do, and that should be enough. those unwilling to research, experiment, inquire about something different aren't mentally ready for reason or explaination..... so its sometimes pointless to talk about it with them.

we're all out there having fun, is not that the goal? if someone is trying to take that away from you then they have way more problems than you can ever address.

just get out there, put up that wacky parachute - with a huge grin on your face, and have a blast !

bobalooie57 - 26-11-2010 at 09:22 AM

Now take it one step further. Try being a "rag flapper" Fly NPW's at a gathering! You'll hear, "Get a real kite..." etc. All in good fun of course. Best comment I ever got though was flying the 7M Rasta's Fury static, in no wind, I heard someone say, "He's like a Picasso with that thing, painting the sky" that was a feel good moment.

ragden - 26-11-2010 at 10:04 AM

The DC kitesurfing crew occasionally give me a hard time about riding foils, but most know the deal by now. Occasionally we get silly comments, meant in a good fun, and taken as such. Funny thing is, some of the guys started on foils, and are intrigued by the newer FS kites... Had one guy say that if he wasnt selling (whatever his brand was), he might have to pick up some FS kites...

I thought they were starting to make a comeback, but people are shying away from what they dont know. Which is reasonable. Trick is to get some out there, show them what it can do, then let them give it a shot...
:smilegrin:

WELDNGOD - 26-11-2010 at 10:12 AM

FB FOILS is all I fly. :ninja:

shaggs2riches - 26-11-2010 at 10:40 AM

very interesting perception indeed. Funniest moment came last week when I was at work. A co-worker who has thought I was crazy from the moment I first put up my 3.5 imp trainer, was listening in when I was trying to explain the different kites and aspects to another worker. He was reading a magazine of mine and was curious why some were inflatable and some were not. I tried to put it in simple terms explaining that inflatables were widely used on water but also work well on land. Pointing at a flysurfer ad he asked if someone could use them on water. Of course I said yes. He asked why some would use one over the other. The other guy instantly piped in "BECAUSE THE BLOW UP ONES ARE THE BEST ITS WHAT THE PROS USE. BUT SOME COMPANIES STILL HAVEN'T CAUGHT UP TO THE TIMES"

I laughed and tried to explain that there was other reasons not to use an inflatable and not all pros use inflatables. Then came a huge ten minute discussion on how he thought he was an expert because he has watched a few youtube videos, so he obviously knew what he was talking about.

While I believe that every kite design has a purpose where it might excel over another, and I do plan to get experience with LEI in the future, as of right now they are not for me. In the end I think it just boils down to what works for you and if you are happy with what you fly then who cares what the next guy thinks. Try pumping up a kite in -35c not much fun when your fingers are frozen and the ball stoppers won't work letting out all the air.

P.S. This is just like the typical Ford vs. Dodge vs. Chevy etc argument, in the end your still gonna drive what you prefer so no point fighting :smilegrin:

bout it

markite - 26-11-2010 at 12:17 PM

Yes I've heard it all as well. Overall I'm not bothered by it - there is a lot of fashion and peer pressure do's and don'ts especially related to kite surfing. I use all kinds of kites - been doing it since the early 80's so I've heard a lot of the same over and over. Every kite has it's right day for a different reason. I think the only thing that really bugs me is that every foil is seen as a "trainer". Even laugh when I read things like "saw the guys in those buggy things using really big trainers - somebody should go show them a real kite"
Then there was a a kiteboarding/beach kite fest the end of the summer, not much wind and everyone standing around. I pull out a 10.8 Reactor as I hear the comments about someone unrolling a big sleeping bag. Then I pop it up, play around, run a few 360s and now I see a huge number of guys standing and watching - hop in a buggy and take off backwards, spin 180, up on two wheels and back - and now there's a line of people that want to go for a ride - yah, it's just a big trainer.

WELDNGOD - 26-11-2010 at 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by markite yah, it's just a big trainer.

LOL:wee:

Seanny - 26-11-2010 at 12:39 PM

Big trainer yeah right. I've had 15-20 foot jumps with my PL Twister II 7.7 in moderate wind and landed like a feather. It was probably blowing at 15 mph or so. Barely enough to get going with an inflato. Toy kite my a$$.

Cheers,
Seanny

tridude - 26-11-2010 at 12:42 PM

all you need to do is body drag your buggy with a Phantom, problem solved.................educate dont discriminate....................free your mind your ass will follow.......................

erratic winds - 26-11-2010 at 12:55 PM

I've tried to educate, but it sure is hard to get some of these LEI stalwarts to believe that something else can also do the job, and sometimes better.

Of course, I think we edu-ma-cated them up at the DSO last year where nothing was flying, no LEI's, no foils, nothing....And some guy comes cruising out of nowhere on a Speed3 19mDeluxe. Probably 40 kites parked on the ground...only one person flying.

tridude - 26-11-2010 at 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Seanny
Big trainer yeah right. I've had 15-20 foot jumps with my PL Twister II 7.7 in moderate wind and landed like a feather. It was probably blowing at 15 mph or so. Barely enough to get going with an inflato. Toy kite my a$$.

Cheers,
Seanny

15 mph wind is plenty with an 12m inflatable on water, 9m/7m with a buggy or landboard..............Im not here to defend either. Ive flown/own both and each have strengths and shortfalls. Fly what you like and fly it like you stole it............

Seanny - 26-11-2010 at 01:05 PM

Of course it's enough!

But can you get a 15-20 foot jump in 15 mph with a 12m inflato, much less a 7.7m inflato?

Cheers,
Seanny

tridude - 26-11-2010 at 01:14 PM

and you would know this thru...........................experience? Sorry grasshopper but you'd be hard pressed to pop 15 to 20 feet with a 12m Speed 2 in that kind of wind................I probably came close a time or two on my 12m S2...............

shaggs2riches - 26-11-2010 at 01:54 PM

Not trying to add fire to the flame but, if one weighed as little as Rip does the how high could ya go???? At 190lbs if I was 30-40lbs lighter the 12m S2 would send me to the moon:wee:

tridude - 26-11-2010 at 02:35 PM

back on thread, its all about education....................kites for all disciplines.................foils at the beach are outstanding and so is their low end

Seanny - 26-11-2010 at 04:26 PM

That's why I use foils, is for their low end. Especially fixed bridle. I weigh just a little more than Rip. It takes nothing to get me off of the ground :wee:

My point is, FB foils definitely have their place. I'm not attacking anyone... I'm saying that whereas in 15 mph winds a 7.7m FBF can get me 15 feet vertical, a 12m inflato probably wouldn't do that, and a 7.7m inflato DEFINITELY wouldn't do that.

The 7.7m PL fixed bridle gets me higher than a 12m LF Envy in the same wind :P

Cheers,
Seanny

ripsessionkites - 27-11-2010 at 04:12 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by shaggs2riches
Not trying to add fire to the flame but, if one weighed as little as Rip does the how high could ya go???? At 190lbs if I was 30-40lbs lighter the 12m S2 would send me to the moon:wee:

lol, its good to be a feather light. however my windrange is still that of a 150lb pilot. i like to ride O-P most of the time.

either way, LEI, FOIL, FB, DEPOWER, TS all have their place in the kiting world. the key work is KITE not the TYPE or BRAND.

Bladerunner - 27-11-2010 at 11:02 AM

I think that around here the water crew DID get educated about the Flysurfer. Fergus is a fellow who taught many of the early kiters and a few years ago there were many days he was the only one out weighing about 150lbs and flying a 26m Psycho II . Airtime has sold Flysurfers to our water crew for a long time now. It is the land crew that were slow to wake up.
There are a number of folks who have taken to the large speeds for or low winds but the go inflato when the wind blows.
Here the devision is more around land and water than LEI and Foil.

3 years ago I was as much a Black Sheep as any kiting town could have ! I was flying Depower kites and riding Coyote rollerblades . EVERYBODY at Gary Point was flying FB almost exclusively. Nobody ever made me feel unwelcome . Instead they allowed me in and now many have seen the value in depower for certian styles of riding. In the 5 or so years I have been around I have seen the land crew evolve and become educated but growth is difficult do to lack of locations..
The Kiitesurf crew has grown by the thousands in the same time. Their great accomplishment is developing a useless spit of land into the famous Squamish Spit . A world class location.

I'm with Mark! I AM simply A KITER !!!!:wee:

powerzone - 28-11-2010 at 10:27 AM

the times we've been up to Vancouver to kite at Jericho or Spanish banks....i've talked with several kiters who have a big foil and some smaller tubes..... their questions and comments suggest that Airtime may sell Flysurfers but they have no idea how to instruct people on foils, the proper usage, safe usage, support, etc.... many people come down to bellingham for a private lesson with me and how they are using the kites scares me.... the water folks could use the good info and skill the land folks have up there !

Bladerunner - 28-11-2010 at 02:17 PM

You are right on there!

At least Phillipe from airtime is straight forward enough to make it clear he doesn't know ( yet sells ) foils. It was Fergus who taught / opened the locals eyes to Flysurfer and PL. I think Phillipes attidude helps keep the whole water crowd slanted in opinion .

Because he is B+M he also has the Ozone line. 2 of the finest kite makers out there and yet they just don't get the attention + technical back up they deserve.

At least we have local access to these fine brands !

[ from what I get out of the local forum the Vancouver crowd is coming down to Bellingham in big numbers these days? ]

Quote:

Originally posted by powerzone
the times we've been up to Vancouver to kite at Jericho or Spanish banks....i've talked with several kiters who have a big foil and some smaller tubes..... their questions and comments suggest that Airtime may sell Flysurfers but they have no idea how to instruct people on foils, the proper usage, safe usage, support, etc.... many people come down to bellingham for a private lesson with me and how they are using the kites scares me.... the water folks could use the good info and skill the land folks have up there !

speleopower - 28-11-2010 at 03:16 PM

Most new "kiters" don't have a clue when it comes to powerkite flying.
I prefer the fixed bridle kites for their low end power. It keeps me out of trouble. When I'm watching power kite flyers on the water or land they are so incredibly powered up they are nearly out of control. I'm guessing they are putting kites up that are fully powered up in the lulls and at full depower in the gusts or overpowered in the gusts.

I guess I'm to old school or to wise for that. My kite is sized for the gust and then slightly underpowered in the lulls. I've not been hurt in 9 years so it seems to be working.

The other perception is foils are trainers. Not sure that can be fixed except to outfly whoever is around with your foil. I had this happen to me at the beginning of October. I was flying my 4.9 Flexifoil Blade on the beach in very light winds on evening. Just messing around. A kite surfer came up and wanted to fly my trainer. I asked if he had ever flown a true power kite and he said of course because he kitesurfs. Well in the light wind I proceeded to launch myself into some small jumps and long scuds and this is in 8 mph or so wind. After he saw the power in a 4 meter he backed off and didn't want to fly it. My best analogy would be the high end fixed bridle kites i.e. the Blade is like flying a F-15 Eagle fighter jet and flying a similar sized tube kite is like flying a Cessna. One is very aerodynamically refined and very unforgiving of even the smallest error and the other is using basic aerodynamics to fly and very forgiving of mistakes and anyone just about can fly one.

-Scott

PHREERIDER - 28-11-2010 at 05:49 PM

well put speleopower! long time ! foil pilot, really says it all..

speleopower - 2-12-2010 at 07:14 PM

I'll be the first to say I can't hardly fly a tube. My timing is all screwed up.
Actually I maybe getting to lazy to kitesurf much. I've taken to freestyle jetskis as a fun alternative sport. You don't have to wait for wind and if it's flat and no wind you will still have fun. My time has become more and more limited due to work, house, yard, cars etc. Problem is I can't just walk across the street carrying my ski to the beach for some surf riding.
If anyone isn't familiar with modern freeride jetski check out this video. I'm having a blast. Expensive as balls but fun!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBQ93I61C8k

-Scott

Houston AirHead - 2-12-2010 at 08:04 PM

Yep well, kitesurfing only with tube kites, i plan to get into foils most likely with FS speed or a PL Venom,

Im getting tired of pumping and slow leaks.
And all i know is i wont give a damn what other people think, as long as i got wind in my sail and am moving between 20 and 30 mph, Life is All Good for me my friends.

krumly - 3-12-2010 at 07:56 AM

Speleopower's comments re fixed bridle kites and general advice to size for the gusts makes total sense. And his abilities with open cell, FB foils on water are indisputable...there's no way I'd try what he does on water. But I think the generic comparison of a Blade foil to tube kite as fighter jet to Cessna is flat out wrong. There are huge ranges in performance within any type of kite, and characterizing one type of construction as at one end of performance and one at another is misleading.

Can't comment on what wind conditions are like at Cocoa Beach, but I do know whether flying on Long Beach Peninsula or on the OB, the variations in wind speed are a heck of a lot less than anything we typically get in eastern Minnesota. Although I started with FB on handles and still love flying them, I more and more use the twinskins or bows.

krumly

kteguru - 3-12-2010 at 09:39 AM

Quote:

But I think the generic comparison of a Blade foil to tube kite as fighter jet to Cessna is flat out wrong

:shocked2::shocked2:Surely you jest :smilegrin:

. Of course Blades are the best :smilegrin:

. Ok, I'll stop pouring fuel on the fire now :smilegrin:

ragden - 3-12-2010 at 09:58 AM

In terms of aerodynamics and effective use of the wind, I dont think that comparison is that far off. But you could say that about fixed-bridles vs depower kites generally speaking.

:dunno:

WELDNGOD - 3-12-2010 at 02:32 PM

everyone should go buy tube kites, and then sell to me ,all your FBs at a great discount. Since they suck :lol:

speleopower - 3-12-2010 at 09:10 PM

Winds around here on the beach are awesome steady. Sometimes so steady it's scary. Light but scary steady most of the time.
As the wind gets stronger and stronger then you can use a less and less aerodynamic kite and still maintain performance. My two tube kites are a 6 meter and a 4 meter.

Open cell foils are just so convenient to use and just don't wear out very fast at all I just can't justify the expense and complications of a new tube kite knowing it will be nearly worthless in a year or two if it lasts that long.

As long as your having fun who cares what your riding.

-Scott