Power Kite Forum - To Kill or not to Kill

To Kill or not to Kill

oldtdevil - 15-6-2010 at 01:03 PM

I've started using kite killers after a few bouts of losing my grip on my small but mighty Prism Stylus P4 (4 lines/handles). I'm sure they are for my own good, but they sure get in the way and add another level of untangle. I haven't lost my kite again yet, so I'm not sure how effective they will be.

I wanted to get the more experienced flyers opinions of kite killers. Are they worth the extra burden?

BigMikesKites - 15-6-2010 at 01:18 PM

I always use them with Fixed Bridle Foils. I make sure I buy a set when the kite doesn't come with them.

It protects you.
It protects the kite.
It protects the poor guy down wind.

here comes the arguments.

Maven454 - 15-6-2010 at 01:21 PM

They generally work, but they are indeed a PITA.

Scudley - 15-6-2010 at 02:12 PM

Say no to killers. If your kite is being blown from your hands, you should be flying a smaller one, not attaching yourself to one you can not control.
S

Maven454 - 15-6-2010 at 02:31 PM

Scudley, at WW in the fall I was flying a 1.5m Nippair in 25-30 mph in a buggy. The buggy got stuck and the jerk ripped the kite out of my hands. It would have gone a long way up the beach if it weren't for the KKs. Believe it or not, #@%$#! happens for reasons other than having too large a kite for the wind conditions.

indigo_wolf - 15-6-2010 at 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Scudley
If your kite is being blown from your hands, you should be flying a smaller one, not attaching yourself to one you can not control.

With heartfelt hopes that this discussion doesn't have to turn into a religious jihaad....

You may have control of yourself, you may have control of your kite.... that's a very small percentage of the things that can go way South, way, way fast.

Absolute faith in your skills or kite size selection should not necessarily deter you from using KKs.

Absolute faith in KKs should not be the controlling factor for kite size selection or your decision to fly in the prevailing winds.

That said, there's plenty of room for improvement in many of the currently available KKs from various manufacturers.

ATB,
Sam

WELDNGOD - 15-6-2010 at 03:57 PM

The ol' blue one is dead on as usual.

bigben91682 - 15-6-2010 at 04:16 PM

I agree, well said Sam

Bladerunner - 15-6-2010 at 04:25 PM

AHHHH, the annual killer debate. Is it that time of year again ?
:rolleyes:

They aren't for everybody !

BeamerBob - 15-6-2010 at 04:29 PM

When this has turned into a jihad before, the conclusion I drew was that kite killers tend to be more for the safety of the kite and those downwind that for the flyer himself. They do offer their own safety concerns as well such as the cord getting wrapped around a buggy wheel. They aren't perfect but I think they are worth the effort in most cases and I fly with them most of the time. Large kites flown in light winds tend to not have them attached. I don't pick my kite size thinking about kite killers any more than seatbelts and airbags affect the way I drive a car. In both cases I try to avoid the accident first and foremost, then if that didn't work, the kite killers keep me from chasing my kite or hurting someone or something downwind.

WIllardTheGrey - 15-6-2010 at 04:45 PM

My vote is "kill", but with caution.

completely

Any thread with this much potential needs one of these :lol:

furbowski - 15-6-2010 at 08:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by oldtdevil
but they sure get in the way and add another level of untangle.

couple ways to reduce the pita factor:

hold the handles so the brake ends are well apart and the powerlines are close together. this way the killer lines are kept well apart.

also check the length of the KK lines, they might be too long and maybe you can tie up the extra length or something.

also check the knots every time you fly, they tend to slip around on the brake leaders.

also with small kites flying static the pita factor is at max: you're moving the handles a lot and quickly as well. with bigger kites this problem is reduced as everthing happens slower. Also when you start to work the edges of the window rather than the power zone (big kites / powered for jumping) the handle movements are smaller and more planned ahead, so less tangles.

and finally (like the usual noob problem with the kite collapsing at the edge of the window in mildly gusty winds) with practice the skills kick in and the problem goes away.

If you're in your comfort zone flying static, you don't need them. The more you fly, esp. at your spot, the better you are at judging your comfort zone. I don't wear mine much, but if I forget them I often miss them.

Great title for the thread, by the way....

Hardrock - 15-6-2010 at 11:42 PM

I just keep them on all the fixed bridle kites. If I start feeling I might be overpowered from some crazy gust, I take my thumbs from around the handles and extend my fingers enough so the handles can be ripped from my hands.

I just can't let go in time if I have the death grip on the handles. I like having the option with them on.

DAKITEZ - 15-6-2010 at 11:51 PM

I normally always say yes to kS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s and in this case I will say yes again even though I have been getting away from them myself in the buggy. I am a strong believer in do as I say not as I do :rolleyes:

In this case I believe oldtdevil flies alot at ocean beach. if this is true hwy 1 is down wind of him. It would be very bad press to have a kite land on someones windshield and cause an accident. Plus if your not in a buggy that shouldn't be that big of a pita

kteguru - 16-6-2010 at 12:57 AM

oldtdevel,,,,I'd say use them until you feel confident in your control to be able to go without them. Although problems can crop up with and with out kite killers I would generally vote to use them even though they can be a hassle sometimes. An important point to remember is that even if people are far down wind of you and you let go of the handles the kite could still end up in a crowd of people. Where as with KS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s your the only one interacting with your kite as you would never be flying so close to others for them to be in the kites path. It may be helpful as well to size your kite for the gusts not the lulls that way your always in control. Of course this is another case of 'do as I say not as I do' since I believe I was on a 6.5 the day Maven was on that 1.5 :D. Just my 2 cents of course.

If I recall correctly I stayed out of the KK debate the last time it came around as it got ugly real fast:D

Maven454 - 16-6-2010 at 03:28 AM

Amusingly kteguru, if I'd been on a 2m or maybe a 2.5m the buggy would have been going fast enough that I probably wouldn't have gotten stuck and would have held onto my kite :D. You though, were a bit insane on that 6.5m.

Drewculous - 16-6-2010 at 07:15 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bladerunner
AHHHH, the annual killer debate. Is it that time of year again ?
:rolleyes:

They aren't for everybody !

LMAO!! TRUE!! AHAHAHA!

I always use 'em (personal exp only) mostly static.... if im in the bug im flyin' a depower.... i have never once flown my twister w/o the killers tho, and i never will

rocfighter - 16-6-2010 at 01:13 PM

Ok now what if your in the buggy with a strop and killers. You loose your grip for what ever reason and the strop pulls the power lines and the KS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s pull the break lines. I suppose it is all about setup and line lenghth.
Just a thought.
I do like the idea of killing the kite to save it and others.

Maven454 - 16-6-2010 at 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by rocfighter
Ok now what if your in the buggy with a strop and killers. You loose your grip for what ever reason and the strop pulls the power lines and the KS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s pull the break lines. I suppose it is all about setup and line lenghth.
Just a thought.
I do like the idea of killing the kite to save it and others.

Not sure I know anyone at all that uses a strop (hooked in) and KKs at the same time.

WELDNGOD - 16-6-2010 at 01:26 PM

I do

edit: I use 1 KK when flying hotwired,cause if the stuff hits the fan, I have to hit the QR. When I do that, whichever handle I'm not holding will launch. So, i just let them both go, the strop keeps them together and the bungee kills the kite.

and there is a little more complicated way of sorting it out but that is another thread.

indigo_wolf - 16-6-2010 at 01:46 PM

Quote:

Ok now what if your in the buggy with a strop and killers. You loose your grip for what ever reason and the strop pulls the power lines and the KS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s pull the break lines. I suppose it is all about setup and line lenghth.

Wouldn't it go something like this:

Strop is unhooked:
Kite flags out.

Strop is hooked in:
Romulan Bird of Prey Death Spiral for the kite except in the VERY unlikely case that the strop is perfectly equalized before AND after you lose your grip on the handles. Possible OBE depending on what kind of power the death spiral builds up and the transition path through the power zone.

I am making the assumption that the strop is shorter than the KKs. Even pulled to one side, I would expect the strop to be shorter than the KKs at full bungee extension.

ATB,
Sam

Kamikuza - 16-6-2010 at 03:39 PM

No good reason NOT to use them :puzzled:

Scudley - 17-6-2010 at 07:50 AM

I notice that this year the pro killer comments are much more subdued than last year. No bull shia claims about how they save lives by allowing you to let go of your kite; no claims about how the pilot is safer because he has them on;
people saying that there are a kite retention device not a safety device. My "jihad" seems to have some effect on the collective consciousness.
S

Maven454 - 17-6-2010 at 08:17 AM

Or they just don't feel like being jumped on by you... ;-)

BeamerBob - 17-6-2010 at 08:22 AM

I don't remember the "whos" and "whats" of the last round, but it is hard to argue that the killers are a safety device for the flyer. Certainly good for those downwind and to keep the kite close by if you bail or it gets yanked out of your hands.

WELDNGOD - 17-6-2010 at 08:29 AM

Yeah , I wouldn't want to get smacked up side of the melon w/ my custom handles. They are a bit heavier than production models. They would leave a mark for sure.

kteguru - 17-6-2010 at 08:33 AM

those were some sweet handles btw WG.

WELDNGOD - 17-6-2010 at 08:41 AM

you mean these

-1.jpg - 235kB

indigo_wolf - 17-6-2010 at 09:02 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Scudley
I notice that this year the pro killer comments are much more subdued than last year. No bull shia claims about how they save lives by allowing you to let go of your kite; no claims about how the pilot is safer because he has them on;
people saying that there are a kite retention device not a safety device. My "jihad" seems to have some effect on the collective consciousness. S

The power to change hearts and minds via the forum/Internet is limited at best and more realistically illusory.

Safer for the pilot? Possibly... but more on a case by case basis rather than any grand sweeping statements.

If you are sharing the field with other flyers or pedestrians, I can definitely see the value. The discussion about whether a poor kite selection would still be pretty much moot to the other parties concerned.

People are going to do what they're going to do... forever and ever, amen.

What's between your ears is still safety device #1.

ATB,
Sam

kteguru - 17-6-2010 at 10:45 AM

@WG those are them..... a thing of bulletproof beauty :thumbup:

Quote:

What's between your ears is still safety device #1.

Uhhhh,,,,Sam,,,,,, If that's the case we're all doomed :no:

indigo_wolf - 17-6-2010 at 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by kteguru
Uhhhh,,,,Sam,,,,,, If that's the case we're all doomed :no:

Helium between the ears promote softer landings... Momma said! :smilegrin:

:wee:

ATB,
Sam

rocfighter - 17-6-2010 at 12:05 PM

Sam I am guessing you are refering to the spectators running and grabbing at a kite fliing away. Never a good thing and they do not understand " Hey don't touch that kite"

indigo_wolf - 17-6-2010 at 12:40 PM

Actually I have never had anyone offer to help me launch any foils. One group really wanted to help me launch a stunt kite. Even weighted and staked, I am not big on leaving any of my kites unattended. Little kids, wind shifts, a passing smoker flicking a butt.... apparently I shared a bunk with Murphy at summer camp.

Have had an older man veer out of his way and kick my stake. My friend and I both did a mental "WTF".

Have had an SUV goinh at a pretty good clip across the fields at CSP nearly run over a kite bag full of framed kites :o because they didn't want to walk their picnic stuff to the tables (the field was actually pretty crowded).

The tripping over/running over (with wheeled cooler) brightly colored lined still boggles the mind. Sometimes yelling "LINES!!!" at no one in particular works. Sometimes other tactics are required. :no:

The popularity of misanthropy is just way too easy to understand sometimes.

Was mulling it over the last week and I gotta say, in some small way, the fault doesn't entirely lay with the general public. But that's another topic.

ATB,
Sam

acampbell - 17-6-2010 at 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Maven454

Not sure I know anyone at all that uses a strop (hooked in) and KKs at the same time.

I do as well but will look to moving the cuffs from my wrists to a bridle on the buggy in order to gain the freedom of movement of my hands for the GPS, water bottle, etc.

Bbrex has a hot-wire rig that is safe, convenient and effective and I might consider that, but that's another thread, I think.

I always wear KS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s...

I am often handing a kite to a stranger for a demo.
I want to demonstrate to a concerned public member that I am thinking about safety.

Kamikuza - 17-6-2010 at 05:48 PM

Safer for the pilot? I think so - knowing that you can just let go of the kite and not lose it tends to relax the death-grip on the handles, resulting in less hanging on when the cause is lost ...
Most important use of KKs is protecting those and that which is downwind. Simple.

Hardrock - 17-6-2010 at 10:17 PM

I'd be interested in the other thread you guys have spoke of. A better, maybe safer way to rig things.
Especially with the bug.

My worst nightmare almost came true at JIBE when a KK hung on the spreader bar. I looked down to see what was wrong and the kite was diving at some peeps heads with their back turned. Close call.

WELDNGOD - 18-6-2010 at 02:47 AM

You need alot of experience before you should try a "hotwire rig". HR search for QR under BBrex username ,that should take you to it

rocfighter - 18-6-2010 at 03:30 AM

Sam after some guy tried launching my 4m in 15mph wind while staked with breaks on? I yelled at him he just smiled and did it anyway. A friend Maggie Envall said to carry a whistle. If some one is near your kite blow it. And I tell you it works. Scares the hell out of them just long enough to get there!!

Krohn1999 - 18-6-2010 at 04:44 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by WELDNGOD
You need alot of experience before you should try a "hotwire rig".

If I understand you correctly "hotwired " means with a stroop?

I have to disagree with you on this. When I teach somone how to buggy they do it "Hotwired" from the first minute. You would be supprised how fast the can learn to buggy using this methode. When not using a stroop the center of gravity is way high and you whole body is working like a prybar to pull your butt out of the seat. When using a stroop everything is much lower and the buggy has way more of a tendance of drifting instead of yanking you out. I have very few OBE's using this methode. Sure it still happend, but normally because the kite got behind them or they shot it straight up top and got lifted out.
When some one gets pulled out backwards it is way better to have it done from the hips than extended arms above thier head. Same with gitting lifted out , whith a stroop you have a chance to land on you feet or you butt, with out everything is possible.
IMO:
Kite killers should never be used in a buggy,
never combined with a stroop (way dangerous),
and latest after the first hour in a buggy get a harness on and use a stroop you will learn much faster.
Chris

Maven454 - 18-6-2010 at 04:55 AM

Krohn, hotwired means attaching the kite to the buggy, not being hooked in with a strop/harness.

Bladerunner - 18-6-2010 at 06:44 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kamikuza
Safer for the pilot? I think so - knowing that you can just let go of the kite and not lose it tends to relax the death-grip on the handles, resulting in less hanging on when the cause is lost ...
Most important use of KKs is protecting those and that which is downwind. Simple.

If you are hooked in you should have no need for a " Death Grip " .
If you gave a DG you have NO CHI !

Be one with your kite ! KNOW HOW to kill power without letting go.

Simple !

Not knocking kite killers . They have their place. Better to find Chi with your kites.

Ask Corey Lama ! ;-)

Kamikuza - 18-6-2010 at 07:35 AM

I assumed we weren't talking about hooked in ...

Krohn1999 - 18-6-2010 at 07:49 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Maven454
Krohn, hotwired means attaching the kite to the buggy, not being hooked in with a strop/harness.

Holy Crap That is even worse!!!!!!!!!

kteguru - 18-6-2010 at 08:50 AM

Quote:

Most important use of KKs is protecting those and that which is downwind. Simple.

If you are hooked in you should have no need for a " Death Grip " .
If you gave a DG you have NO CHI !

Be one with your kite ! KNOW HOW to kill power without letting go.

Simple !

Not knocking kite killers . They have their place. Better to find Chi with your kites.

There's a lot of wisdom in BR's comment. KK are useful if used properly in the right conditions but eventually making your way towards finding balance between you and your kite is so much more rewarding. There's an enourmous difference between 'flying your kite' and 'flying with your kite'. Moving from the 2nd stage of knowingly controling your kite to the 3rd stage of flying in snychronistic harmony with your kite so that your buggy/board moves simultaniously, seamlessly with the kite,,,,,,,, both working together in harmonious precision getting us to the all illusive buggy nirvana

indigo_wolf - 18-6-2010 at 10:13 AM

I head the tea shops in NH were under investigation by the DEA :o :smilegrin:

ATB,
Sam

kteguru - 18-6-2010 at 11:23 AM

Quote:

I head the tea shops in NH were under investigation by the DEA :o :smilegrin:

ATB,
Sam

Shhhh

Someone needs to post a picture of a Buddha flying a kite :smilegrin:

indigo_wolf - 18-6-2010 at 11:29 AM

Someone needs to get you a new tea mug.... :rolleyes:

ATB,
Sam

kteguru - 18-6-2010 at 11:32 AM

:smilegrin:

Hardrock - 18-6-2010 at 12:19 PM

Thanks WG.

Also

Hotwired has a new meaning. I've always thought of doing this on the boat if it was broken down.

But no way Jose will I do it to a bug.

WELDNGOD - 18-6-2010 at 03:11 PM

It is all good , But you gotta have the right equip. or it is highly dangerous. It is NOT FOR EVERYONE. It allows my 169lb azz to not get yanked out of the #@%$#!pit. I don't like faceplants on the beach(see avatar). I can fly a bigger kite than I can physically hold down. This is my equalizer.

If you want to see my hotwire rig it is posted in the pic above

Hardrock - 18-6-2010 at 06:33 PM

Yea I see what you got now. But Thats a few years out for me. :lol:

WELDNGOD - 18-6-2010 at 07:13 PM

It took me about 5 yrs before I felt comfy w/ it. It is not for the faint of heart, cause you're really committed to it . But you do have a Quick release in case it gets ugly like it did the other day when I lost a wheel. It worked a charm.
I was unhurt , the kite was unhurt. The buggy was just sanded a little on tha one side.
The system I use releases the kite, handles,pulley,and wichard.. So KS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s are needed so ya don't brain someone w/ all that hardware.