Power Kite Forum

Apperant wind and jumping.

Bladerunner - 7-1-2010 at 07:46 AM

To what degree can one jump using mostly apperant wind.

We have a lot of sub 10mph wind days here. Lately I have been trying to jump when I am riding faster than that because as my running speed passes the magic 14mph I can feel the kite loading well enough it would seem. When I go throuh the motions I get some short lived lift mostly from the pop and then it al fizzles out.

Is there a method to keep that apparent wind up ? Kiteloop?

I felt that this is how I would be able to jump with larger kites but I'm starting to think that the kite needs a minimum sustained wind to pull it off ???

PHREERIDER - 7-1-2010 at 08:45 AM

loop, transition .

actually did my first kiteloop air trans. to toeside on the land board

having the kite cross the window at speed makes the juice and a loop catches everything up. light wind fun. around 8mph .

DenisLaMenace - 7-1-2010 at 08:50 AM

flysurfer silver arrow 19m would solve your problem :lol: :lol:

william_rx7 - 7-1-2010 at 09:04 AM

Velocity (Apperant wind is significant, since lift force rises exponentially with wing speed.

Lift = Lift_Coefficient*(1/2)*(Surface Area)*(Density)*(Velocity)^2

Surface area (kite size) and Air Density (see http://localkitespots.com/boost.htm) are important, but they remain fairly static while you are riding. Velocity is most significant, and something you can control while riding.

Kite Looping can help get your speed up, as will sine-waving your kite, or riding downwind slightly.

I try to concentrate on carrying lots of speed during transitions. A downloop can really give a significant speed boost coming out of a transition, and you really don't loose that much ground downwind.

If you're riding in snow, surface conditions are pretty significant too. On a slick, icy surface, is hard to build line tension in order to get a good pop.

I promise I'm not trying to start a foil vs. LEI debate with this next statement, but you might consider trying an LEI if you never have before. I find that switching from my 12m Ozone (foil) to my 12m Cabrinha Omega (LEI), my LEI jumps significantly better. To me, I get more pop, and it's easier to do tricks (backloop, frontloop), and recover from overflying if needed with my LEI. My Frenzy never seems to give me any pop, and folds-up I overfly it. I love both kites, and fly them regularly, but when I'm out for a good jumping session, I always opt for my blow-up doll.

There, I said it, and touched the 'third rail' of kite forums, now let the debate begin :)

PHREERIDER - 7-1-2010 at 09:48 AM

piloting skills for light wind riding that is apparent wind dependent requires kite skills to keep the rig "on" . if you stop riding to kite will just fall . no matter what you are flying. grass will require more wind . smooth surface , ice , hardpack almost a requirement. lei need a fraction more wind, they stall and can't finish the turn in ultra light wind. they may produce a decent snatch but can't recover with the system. foils float pass the acceleration back lash much better and can pull out of the bottom edge of the window more predictably. 10mph really anything will work for most . 8mph needs ALL ,surface, kite skills and ride piloting. all about maintaining KITE SPEED and the system that supports it.



3rd rail? don't get it

furbowski - 7-1-2010 at 11:51 AM

It's not just foil vs. LEI.... That's the most visible part, like the tip of the iceberg.

It's also skills, ground quality, wind quality, wind speed, and flying style / technique...

the only part of the discussion of apparent wind and jumping it is possible to be completely objective about is what kind of kite it is, and so the arguments / debate / railage ( :puzzled: ) end up focusing on the bit you can see floating about in the air and you end up with a grossly oversimplified debate, IMHO.

I'm a total newbie to holding an edge of any kind, I consider myself a very comfortable static jumper, but once I hold any kind of edge I go straight back to newbie. kite crashes, collapses, line tangles, the whole nine yards. :frog:

:Ange09:

I understand apparent wind well from sailing and want to pick up what I can from this discussion, but if it goes all Foil / LEI I won't learn a darn thing and I'll be very disappointed in what could be a rather useful little thread. :no:

Anyways... In order for this thread to be useful, it's got to focus on the technique / wind quality / ground conditions rather than the equipment, IMHO.

Look at the title of the thread, for pucS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s sake: "apparent wind and jumping" NOT "what kite is best for using apparent wind to jump"

OK, rant mode off. :bigok:

edit: note to self, don't post while hungover... I'll leave it up tho.

Bladerunner - 7-1-2010 at 07:23 PM

Actually, I am interested in the opinions of LEI experienced flyers on this subject. Ozone has a low wind specific Blimp that I'm kicking myself for not trying when I was with Eli at SOBB. I can't remember the name. This thing didn't want to fall out of the sky when the wind shut down like other Blimps I've flown around.

I am SURE that getting a decent jump in sub 10 wind has A LOT to do with skills I'm lacking but aspire to. I'm still just happy if I can ride a high jump out without looking spastic. I haven't tried a kite loop jump ever but I'm thinking it will be one of the best methods of keeping the power on ?

Denis,

Do you REALLY think the 19m Speed will do it ? The fellow who was riding the same winds with me last weekend wasn't doing anything but ride on His 19m Speed 3 ? Again it may be he didn't have low wind jumps skills? He never seemed to try??? I don't know the guy but I fell in love with his kite ! He didn't seem to be going all that much faster than me but he sure looked the job under that sweet kite!
It seems to me that if keeping the speed of the kite up is important in low wind jumping something that turns faster ( like a Charger ? ) might be key ??????? How do you go about a jump on a 19m speed ?

I'm clear that a Speed will be the ultimate low wind engine I'm just not so sure I will be able to jump any earlier with it. Again partly do to lack of skills. If I just want a low wind truck I'll ride a big Reactor.

InvertedForce - 7-1-2010 at 07:38 PM

Well, for all you know, he may have been holding back with his SA, not really pushing the envelope and just riding comfortably. I've heard lots about those SA, their sweet low-end and immense power where there seems to be so little wind. I'm sure if you got one, you'd be pleasantly surprised. Can't speak out of experience here, but its rather hard to find somebody that is genuinely displeased with their Silver Arrow...

Only problem is their hellaciously expensive price tag.

I would think working up to a fast sine to build up apparent wind would get you to the jump and then a kiteloop would allow you to follow through with a trick and some float.

As for keeping the apparent wind up so you can transfer from a jump back to riding... well, thats beyond me. If you are skilled enough to loop again after the jump and keep the apparent wind, you might be able to go back into a sine and repeat the process...

Just my guess..

william_rx7 - 8-1-2010 at 03:59 AM

The LEI / Foil debate is the 3rd rail of forums. If you try to contrast the two designs in a post, (even comparing how the two designs relate to low-wind jumping), it just polarizes everyone into their camps. Based on Furb's self-described rant above, I guess I called it right.
Quote:

According to Wikipedia
The phrase third rail is a metaphor in politics to denote an idea or topic that is so "charged" and "untouchable" that any politician or public official who dares to broach the subject would invariably suffer politically.

The third rail in a railway is the exposed electrical conductor that carries high voltage power. Stepping on the high-voltage third rail usually results in electrocution.


@Bladerunner, Sorry for electrocuting your thread.

Honestly, flying in 8 knot winds stinks, even with big foils. Under 10 knots, forget kiting, and go mountain biking or something.

InvertedForce - 8-1-2010 at 06:32 AM

Yea, flying in low wind is aggravating for sure, you're always fighting to keep the kite in the air, let alone pull of anything worth all the setup. HOWEVER, doing something else doesn't satisfy the addiction...

Bladerunner - 8-1-2010 at 07:33 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by InvertedForce
Yea, flying in low wind is aggravating for sure, you're always fighting to keep the kite in the air, let alone pull of anything worth all the setup. HOWEVER, doing something else doesn't satisfy the addiction...


You said it !

So ....... back to my recent issue.

A want an SA like crazy BUT ......... it is a lot of money and I know I can get the riding I crave with someting more in my budget like a big Reactor. ( My Twister isn't bad even ) . I'm not so sure that .

A : I'll be jumping in our small parks with a 19SA . Not much room to build speed.
B: my skills are still novice when it comes to jumps. I'm not sure I will be able to fly it to it's best advantage ?

I can't help but think I want an SA for things it may not be able to give me and I'm not able to draw out of it?

I can't wait for Rip' to get us a 19 Charger so I can fill one part of the puzzle.

We NEED a pass the Speed 3 :singing:

PHREERIDER - 8-1-2010 at 08:26 AM

gottacha on the 3rd rail , no sub way/trains here.

had good sucess riding in light air with tubes but they don't pump now and i'm way pass enjoying repairing them.

the fill is the hassle on the lynns but by far easier(for me)

point of sail and kite skills matched with a decent sized rig( really whatever you like)

anything too big or too slow is doable needs a ton of space to run up some speed.

around 12-15m tube . 8-10mph . a c-kite will do a little better than depower.

and you really have to use the entire window . i mean crack the whip every stroke right down the center all the way down, with good edging resistance it 'l go right back up ready for it again. thinking about 3-4 sec ahead of the kite with good riding line. the trans require even more aggressive kite piloting.

if you stop the kite will just drop....so constant movement is the order of the day

when your callus are sore from flying or you get blisters (on your hands ) you 're doing it right .

william_rx7 - 9-1-2010 at 07:45 PM

Perhaps you should consider buying my Flysurfer 17 Speed, with the 1.5 mod? A good compromise, at a small fraction of $3000. ($US 500 obo?)... PM me if interested.

Bladerunner - 9-1-2010 at 08:11 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by PHREERIDER


the fill is the hassle on the lynns but by far easier(for me)

point of sail and kite skills matched with a decent sized rig( really whatever you like)

anything too big or too slow is doable needs a ton of space to run up some speed.

when your callus are sore from flying or you get blisters (on your hands ) you 're doing it right .



YES , I think my lack of space may make it tough to run up the speed .

I'm starting to think that getting a fan to inflate a 19m Charger may be my best move. I expect I will be able to get more out of it in a small park ? Once it is properly inflated my Syn will launch in some pretty low wind. I still hold out great hopes for the Chargers new bottom end ?

That is a very tempting price on that Speed !!!!

I dream of getting blisters from too much kiting. :ticking:

furbowski - 9-1-2010 at 09:01 PM

no third rail on this thread, it's right on track,,,, :wee:

sorry for the rant...:flaming: :lol: :crazy: :Ange09: :embarrased:

...someday, maybe someday, I'll be in a position to learn for myself what you guys are yakkin about.

in the meantime, thanks for keeping my stoke up!

indigo_wolf - 9-1-2010 at 09:59 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bladerunner
Ozone has a low wind specific Blimp that I'm kicking myself for not trying when I was with Eli at SOBB. I can't remember the name. This thing didn't want to fall out of the sky when the wind shut down like other Blimps I've flown around.


Hmmmm.... could you be talking about the Zephyr?

http://www.vimeo.com/6847525

ATB,
Sam

Bladerunner - 9-1-2010 at 10:08 PM

That's IT !!

I would like to here someones back to back impression of this kite and the SA in the same super low winds.
It was doing the jobb a SOBB :cool:

I think I was shy of Eli's because I'm brainwashed about Lei's being delicate ?

lives2fly - 11-1-2010 at 05:23 AM

I don't have to cope with low winds much. Its pretty much always windy here. Mostly if its 10 - 12 mph or less i will go and do something else.

For times when nothing but a kite will do I have had more success with medium sizedhigh aspect, fixed bridle foils than with big twinskins or blow ups.

I'm surprised you arent getting jumps in with you 9m blade. I have done pretty well in the 8-10mph zone using a (borrowed) Blade 3 at around 8m. Older Blades are super lifty and you can throw them around a lot.

Kite speed through the air certainly seems to be the biggest factor in my experience though I am a beginner at jumps aswell and more used to trying to deal with too much power rather than not enough!

Bladerunner - 11-1-2010 at 07:51 AM

I am too poor with my timing to get the redirect in time with the 9 blade. When it is windy enough for redirect the kite starts to scare me.

I DO need to work on the 7.7 Twister more. I put it up until the Syn would fly . Switching to handles was a touch odd after so much time on depower. I was having trouble feeling where the twister was in the few attempts . I see tons of potential in the 7.7 I just need time to get intamate with that kite.

Rip will have a 19m Charger in soon. I'm buying a blower and crossing my fingers . :)

lives2fly - 11-1-2010 at 10:30 AM

:) yeah blades are scary! my 6.6 tries to hurt me regularly! They are the liftiest kite ever though.

I get good static jumps in with the 6.6 in almost no wind at all!

I know exactly what you mean with the redirect, its really hard to keep the line tension going for a responsive turn in very light winds. you get enough speed to hold an edge going and then lose it all positioning your kite for the jump because it just wont redirect quick enough -

I love my 5.6 Twister so I'm really keen to get a 7.7 - I would be interested to hear how you get on with yours in that 10mph or less wind bracket.

f0rgiv3n - 11-1-2010 at 10:37 AM

I experienced the apparent wind and jumping this weekend. It was quite interesting. I had my 15m syn out in about >10mph it started out above that but died down below 10mph. I was able to get on a small concrete sidewalk that crossed the wind (lucky, i know) and with the little resistance i had on the board I was able to move fast.

It was incredible how fast i was able to go once i got the apparent wind going!! I was actually going the fastest i've ever gone on the board, and it was like 10mph out!!! I got to the end and did a jump at that huge speed and got a small 4 foot jump that immediately dropped me, not nearly as floaty as if I had real wind to use but heck, i had a blast! I now understand what's being talked about here :) . It was awesome getting that kite moving that fast in little amounts of wind!!! I can also now understand how you could use a huge fixed bridle foil on ivanpah in very little wind and get going fast still.

PHREERIDER - 11-1-2010 at 10:59 AM

right on ! you learn alot fun easy, esp. of timing and kite control. redirect sooner and the drop is better. that the spot to loop it. you'll finish with speed instead of a drop.